Rethinking my duplex load

Duck and Goose hunting

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james.moffat
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Re: Rethinking my duplex load

Postby james.moffat » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:43 pm

Hello DerbyacresBob,

I enjoyed your post and can relate to enjoying handloading, creating a better shell/load combo. I had given some tungsten honker loads to 2 of the guys I snow goose hunt with. The lightest loads were straight TSS 8 shot in 7/8oz loads and they were taking honkers to 50. They also had some duplex with steel and TSS 7 shot. There’s a pond they hunt with a metal shed on the other side. They have hunted this pond for years with BB steel and BBB steel. The first thing they noticed when they started shooting the duplex shells is that they could hear the pellets hitting the metal shed on the far side of the pond. They theorized it was the 7 TSS, retaining velocity, and carrying farther than the BBB steel and T steel in the duplex loads. They had never heard a pellet hit the metal shed since they had started hunting there, years ago. Just an interesting anecdote but it supports what we have been writing about regarding density and retained velocity.

Hope your loads are dry and skies filled with geese next fall.

Sincerely,
James



jim-22
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Re: Rethinking my duplex load

Postby jim-22 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:44 pm

OK, after thinking it through, I decided to go with 3/8 no. 8 TSS on top of 3/4 oz no. T steel. This works out to 39 pellets of steel T and 100 pellets of TSS 8. I got a double on large geese at 75 yds, it was an ambush in a bog so first shot on the ground and second on spread wings. I found NO pellets in the geese. Knocked them silly. On the same day I ambushed a mess of large ducks in a swamp 100 or more at 65 yds. Took the first shot at swimmers and 2 more as they lifted off and killed 5 ducks on the 3 shots. I found single T pellets in 2 of the ducks. Retrieve was a chore due to ice. This is an awesome load. I am using a factory Browning IM DS choke which patterns extremely well on paper at 40 yds with all pellets in a 30 inch square. This works out to $1.15 in TSS per load and I did not add it up but probably another $0.40 for steel, wads, primer and hulls. This is almost twice more expensive than Blindside (yikes!) but the look on my friend's face when the bird falls out of the sky is priceless.



paulinkansas
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Re: Rethinking my duplex load

Postby paulinkansas » Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:28 pm

Jim-22, did you pattern the shells with the #8 TSS on the bottom or on the top? I've been doing all my duplexing with the TSS on the bottom of the wad. Supposedly it patterns tighter, but at the price of the shells I'm a little leery about going gung ho on the patterning board with TSS. I guess I need to make more money in the furnished short term rental house business.



jim-22
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Re: Rethinking my duplex load

Postby jim-22 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:30 pm

I patterned extensively vs choke with TSS on the bottom. I will go back now and pattern again to compare TSS on top vs bottom. I will report my findings this weekend.



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james.moffat
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Re: Rethinking my duplex load

Postby james.moffat » Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:36 am

Jim-22,

Great report and congrats on a successful hunt. I have never choked this load that tight. I shoot a Beretta A350 which is the same barrel/choke system as the A400 and they have very thin-walled tubes. Most of what I have shot has been skeet through light modified with good patterns at 40 yards but not 100 pct. I need to pattern a modified tube and I have a special improved modified made with harder steel but i’m Worried about chokes and barrel, shooting T steel duplexes, especially the improved modified. That is one wicked load: pattern, shot/count, density, and penetration. You have piqued my curiosity on tighter chokes.

I haven’t had time to make a single waterfowl hunt this fall but i’m Hoping to get out for the snow goose conservation order in February/March. Continued success and keep the reports coming.

Sincerely,
James



jim-22
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Re: Rethinking my duplex load

Postby jim-22 » Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:34 pm

I shot 3/8 oz TSS no. 8 duplexed with 3/4 oz of T steel, 12 gauge. This works out to 39 pellets of steel and 96 pellets of TSS. Chronied at around 1460 fps. Approximately all the shot lands on a 30 inch paper at 40 yds. The gun was a new Browning A5 with factory Browning DS IM choke. Note there is a lot of controversy around the labeling of the new DS chokes. I could care less what the label is only how it patterns. This barrel is factory overbored to 0.74 in and the choke tightens it to 0.726 in. The result was visually striking: in a 10.5 inch diameter circle (hey, its the size of the dinner plate I had handy) we have 7 Ts + 24 8s for tungsten of top and 5 Ts + 45 8s for tungsten on bottom. Tungsten on the bottom has a way tighter core.

This load is really good for large geese at long range. I think I am pretty well matched for meeting the Raster requirement of 50-55 pellets and having enough penetration to knock down a large goose at around 80 yds with this load.



derbyacresbob
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Re: Rethinking my duplex load

Postby derbyacresbob » Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:04 pm

I just put the TSS #8 shot and steel "T" shot in my KPY Shotshell Ballistic program at a speed of 1460 fps.

These tow shot sizes at 1460 fps were very close to being the same penetration at around 55 yards and at 80 yards.

At 1460 fps the TSS #8 shot got 2.50" of gel penetration at 56.7 yards.
At 1460 fps the steel "T" shot got 2.50" of gel penetration at 52.5 yards.

At 1460 fps the TSS #8 shot got 1.88" of gel penetration at 80 yards.
At 1460 fps the steel "T" shot got 1.76" of gel penetration at 80 yards.



jim-22
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Re: Rethinking my duplex load

Postby jim-22 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:04 pm

Hmm... thanks for running these numbers! It seems the gel penetration is not quite as high as I would have guessed but the geese are falling pretty good. The pattern is dense and that has to help. I am happy with this load.



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james.moffat
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Re: Rethinking my duplex load

Postby james.moffat » Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:23 am

Hello Bob and Jim,

I really enjoy hearing about the different loads, how they perform, and the penetration tests. One of the guys I gave some shells to last year called tonight and has decided he wants to start loading tungsten for 20 gauge. Being an engineer by trade, and an avid water fowl hunter, I suspect he’ll be hooked.

I settled on 2 loads for this year’s conservation order snow goose hunt, after experimenting with several last year. I really liked the 7 1/2 in TSS and decided to blend 3/8 OZ of 7 1/2 TSS over 7/8 OZ BBB steel and for the second load 3/8 oz 7 1/2 TSS over 7/8 oz T steel. I have 4 flats loaded and plan to load one more in the next month before season starts. I also bought two, ten packs of Federal Heavyweight at the suggestion of Bob. Now, i’m stuck trying to decide if I want to salvage the 1 7/8 oz of 15 g/cc tungsten or just use them on honkers next year as is. I bought one batch of 5’s earlier and recently a batch of 6’s. I guess it’s a good decision to have to make. :D

Jim, you had even better experiences than me with the tss 8 and t steel duplex. I suspect you are holding tighter patterns at further range. I haven’t shot honkers with duplex yet but I have shot snows and Rossies. Shooting straight steel BB’s, the loads would run out of killing power around 50 yards. With the duplex loads, we figured the shells were giving us an additional 20 yards of killing range over straight steel BB’s. They are like hevi-metal on steroids.

Did you ever end up patterning tungsten over steel vs under? Just curious what you found. Hope you both are well and good luck at the press, range, and field. Bob, still floored over your video of the coyotes with #3 tungsten. They never knew what hit them. And good shooting on a dead run. Looks like you have all the misses shot out of that shotgun! :)

James



jim-22
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Re: Rethinking my duplex load

Postby jim-22 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:10 am

James-
The result is posted above. Way denser pattern, visually striking, with tungsten on bottom. Dense tungsten core with the T more spread out. Just one distance (40 yd) one choke Browning DS IM, and one gun the new A5 which is factory overbored to 0.74 but the result is really striking. As these things tend to go with patterns, I think other gun/choke combos can have quite different results. The same gun does not shoot any buckshot or any slug well with any choke- go figure- but it shoots straight TSS T very well, my 39 pellet deer load which failed me in extreme cold weather this year so I retired it. I knocked a few standing geese up to 135 yd with this load with my leftovers. Bowled them over. I am going to replace it with a 1 1/4 oz load of pure TSS probably BB for a long range standing goose banger. Expensive but I do not shoot many of these. The snow geese sound exciting. One of these years I got to go.
Bob- just saw the dog videos, nice shooting and amazing results. You can understand why I like shooting T at running deer. You might try it on the dogs if you need more range. Plenty of pellets. In my crude tests, penetrated like 00 buck through wood.
Jim
PS Bob if you get a chance can you run gel penetration of TSS T vs BB vs no. 3 at 1460 fps.?




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