Duplex load for pheasant

Upland Game birds and Hunting.

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Cockeye
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2017 5:43 am

Duplex load for pheasant

Postby Cockeye » Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:18 pm

Has any one put #9 tss with like #6 lead for upland game in 20ga thanks



Dave in AZ
Posts: 99
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2016 1:38 pm

Re: Duplex load for pheasant

Postby Dave in AZ » Sat May 06, 2017 12:24 am

Cockeye wrote:Has any one put #9 tss with like #6 lead for upland game in 20ga thanks


Haven't, but it looked interesting and I'm out of stuff to read, so thought I'd give it a quick ballistic analysis:
1. You can load 1-1/4 and 1-3/8oz loads in 20ga, using CSD20 or PT2092 (or now the CSD203) wads, at around 1250fps. So really healthy payloads.
2. That's 281 or 309 #6 lead pellets. I don't know a good gel penetration that folks use, but looking at Rosters CONSEP table for non tox lethality and comparing large ducks to pheasants, I will use 1.5" gel as the numbers he gives appear to indicate pheasants are similar to large ducks with maybe a bit harder due to going away. So that gives 42.8 yards at 1000msl and 32F, 1250fps.
3. #9 tss gives 66.5 yards in same conditions.
4. In pellet weight, there are 1.59 TSS #9 pellets per #6 lead. This means if you removed 100 lead pellets, you could replace it with 159 TSS pellets, a 59% increase.
5. CONSEP lethality shows you need 90-95 pellets in an evenly spread 30" pattern to achieve enough hits on the bird (6-7?) to end up with 2-3 hits in a lethal area. This was with 3" 20ga shells using #2 or #3 steel, or HW13#4 shot-- of course lead or TSS will do also, and the pellets needed should be the same (maybe slightly more hits needed for smaller TSS wound channel, if you lean that direction).
6. Pattern studies usually show pattern dropping off 10% with every 5 yards in range.
7. So a #6 lead load of 1-1/4oz, 281 pellets, will reach out 43 yards or so to our assumed penetration; and it will have over 3 times the pellets needed in it. You can have a very open choke and still easily achieve your 90 pellets. Let's assume 60% pattern at 40 yards, and 40% at 50 yards, and 30% at 60 yards-- you still have over 90 pellets in the pattern. If you choke tighter, which many do, all to the best. Of course #6 probably only reach 43 yards penetration wise if our guesstimate is accurate, a total wag there-- actual pheasant hunters will know how far #6 will work.
8. #5 lead gives 217 pellets and 54 yards with our assumptions. Still over 2x the pellets needed for good consep lethality, and a 42% choke at 54 yards will do it. This starts to look like a better balance of pellets and range, equating to maybe a 65% pattern at 40 yards which is just a standard modified to IM choking percentage. So this 1-1/4oz load of #5 runs out of pattern density just as it runs out of penetration, around 54 yards, and that seems a pretty good distance for myself. If allowed to use lead, I don't think I'd have any ballistic need to admix anything-- I have already achieved both pellet count and range I would want for pheasant. And I could always load up a 1-3/8oz load for another 22 pellets.

So you'd have to decide what your goal was and then let that drive your substitution ratio. Several ways to come down on this. Since you said #6 lead and TSS, my thoughts would be to create a fast blooming lead pattern that would be wide and lethal at 15-40 yards, and then from 40 to 65 or so I'd have a TSS core that has now spread out and is sufficient to provide a lethal pattern out to 65. So I'd want 100 pellets or more TSS that held within a 30" circle at 65 yds. I'd also know that 20% of my lead would still be in the circle and could provide head/neck lethal hits.
I would load it maybe 200 pellets lead, 129 pellets TSS #9 (that should work out to 1-1/4oz), with TSS on bottom. I'd press the speed up to 1300-1350 to maybe deform the lead if I wanted quick opening patterns, or hold 1250 if they were wide enough at 20 yds. And I'd use an IC choke likely, then try Mod, with an expectation the TSS would hold solid from an IC and I'd get that good early lead bloom.

So that's my first hack thoughts on it-- and I wouldn't mess with it out to 55 yds or so, just shoot #5. I'll be interested in hearing what you're trying to achieve and if I was close to your goals at all ;)



Dave in AZ
Posts: 99
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2016 1:38 pm

Re: Duplex load for pheasant

Postby Dave in AZ » Sat May 06, 2017 12:28 am

for some reason I fixated on pheasant, but you said upland game.
I know I often use #6 lead upland, since I don't have a dog and things get up kinda far out often-- even these AZ quail jump up at 40 yds and #6 has given me better lethality than 7.5. But pattern density can be an issue, so I could see adding TSS... but for stuff smaller than pheasant and to match with #6, I'd be using #9.5 tss.



Dave in AZ
Posts: 99
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2016 1:38 pm

Re: Duplex load for pheasant

Postby Dave in AZ » Sat May 13, 2017 6:57 pm

cockeye mentioned to me in PM that he's looking for 30-40 yd shots on pheasants, over dogs so consistent on ranges, and just looking for "dead right there" so they don't fall then get up and run. Also he might be shooting 28ga this year.

With that info, I'd probably just shoot 1-1/8oz or 1-1/4oz #5 lead. I'd go with nickle plated lead, just since I've heard reports they don't get bound in hackle type feathers as much. That's 195-216 pellets that will all penetrate 1.8" or so to 45 yds. Several decent recipes, I'd use cheddite/ch209/a-steel/csd20 at 1250fps, of the Fiocchi/Fio616 version. I like the patterns from that wad with lead. 20ga 3" hulls. Then I'd remove maybe 1/4oz lead and replace with TSS #9.5. That would give a net gain of 65 pellets, all with 2.00" gel penetration at 40 yds, which should result in plenty of pellets and penetration.

If any cork or felt was needed, I would put it on bottom of the wad below the shot, then TSS, then nickle plated lead. I like putting cork first, then felt... my theory is less chance of embedded pellets sticking in wad that way, but not many data points of pellets ever actually sticking even with just a felt.

Of course you'd have to pattern them at 40 yds to see if you're happy with the pattern.



hawglips
Posts: 279
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:56 pm

Re: Duplex load for pheasant

Postby hawglips » Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:13 am

When duplexing TSS with another type shot, it's good to consider what kind of pattern you're looking for, and how closely you want the TSS to match up with the other shot as far as penetration and time to target goes. If you put the TSS on the bottom, you will tend to have more pattern disruption with steel, which often works out very nicely. Putting TSS on top, generally speaking, will tighten up the overall pattern due to less disruption. So, it's not a bad idea to try it both ways before deciding how you want to stack it.

With a TSS x lead duplex, I actually developed a heavy turkey load several years back which created a close-in pattern much wider than any other shell, lead or otherwise, while still maintaining a viable extra long range pattern. The TSS tended to stay in the core of the pattern pushing the lead out as it traveled through the shot column in flight. Anyway, testing your duplex results on the range is always the best policy before loading up a lot of them and taking them hunting.




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