careful substitutions

Open discussion on Tungsten Super Shot "TSS" Handloading.

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jim-22
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2017 2:14 pm

careful substitutions

Postby jim-22 » Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:17 am

I loaded my first TSS exactly according to Hal's recipe today. Going to pattern some today. For now I am loading only 2 3/4 inch 12 gauge. My question is, for loads that are not close to max pressure, can I safely substitute a rolled crimp for a folded? And perhaps more interestingly, can I substitute a new Fiocchi primed hull for a Federal? Or substitute a Cheddite for either Fiocchi or Federal? Why might I want to do any of this?
1) I like the very clean look of a rolled shell.
2) Federals can be hard for me to get sometimes.
3) Cheddite makes a 2 1/2 incher that would be perfect for rolling without trimming where as the 2 3/4 need to be trimmed to get the perfect roll.
I read some interesting post where Hal did such hull substitution for Federals and there was one surprise that the Cheddite pressure went up, but not drastically.

Any thoughts or info is appreciated. I have done a fair amount of loading but am brand new to TSS.

Tkx.
Jim



Dave in AZ
Posts: 99
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2016 1:38 pm

Re: careful substitutions

Postby Dave in AZ » Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:58 am

shorter hulls with the same components = higher pressure. Look at 2.75" vs. 3" 20ga, you can't load the same payloads to anywhere near the same speeds.

Rolled shells generally lower pressure, probably ok- but don't do it on an already low load, like 7k, could get too low for reliability.

In general substitutions rely on having enough datapoints with similar components where just one change happens, that you can predict with some assurance. Based on tested data. With TSS loads, none of that exists, you don't have any other references really besides a few valid tested loads. Not knowing the recipe you're looking at, I can't say, though likely Hal could answer the hull swap question. But really... after buying the TSS, getting 100 hulls of any flavor required from BPI for $10 or so, isn't really much of an imposition hey?

That being said, look at the hull volumes you want to swap. Federal 2.75", paper basewad I assume, are pretty low volume hulls, and I'd guess you're using Fed primer with them? So cheddite and Fiocchi both are more volume. Here's a blog I wrote with 2.75" 12ga hulls volume tested:
https://pipesf16.wordpress.com/12-ga-2-75-hull-volumes/

My worry would be this: too low of pressure. Going with roll and larger volume hull could get the pressure down... there's a ton of fluff spacers in 12ga loads too which give low pressure usually. You might end up stacking up too many pressure reducers.

Good luck!



jim-22
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2017 2:14 pm

Re: careful substitutions

Postby jim-22 » Mon Feb 20, 2017 3:36 pm

Dave-
Thanks for this insight. I will just stick to the exact recipe.
Jim



Dave in AZ
Posts: 99
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2016 1:38 pm

Re: careful substitutions

Postby Dave in AZ » Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:51 am

I'll throw in a follow up for other folks that may read this and be interested later. Jim PMed me and mentioned the load he was looking at was 5880 psi, which is all I know about it besides it apparently uses a clear Fed hull from BPI, known as "0.090 integral" or "Federal PB" in BPI literature. It's hard for him to get primed Fed hulls for him in his state, and I guess hard to get primers too maybe?

This is a VERY low psi, so low I wouldn't normally trust it for any lead loads I shot a lot of-- I'd be looking for something higher 9000-11000 psi for efficient complete burns. So my points above on being careful to not LOWER the psi by using a roll crimp and a larger hull are spot on-- pressures on this could drop to 4000 and you'd be lucky to not get bloopers.

In this case, using a similar volume hull such as a cheddite or Fiocchi or Fed GM would be fine IMO-- you've got almost 6000 psi to play with to saami specs! I personally would be looking to use a smaller volume hull like Fed TopGun in this to increase pressure and take up some volume, maybe reduce wad fillers.
It would be an untested load then, and each person must make his own choices; I would have no problem myself with so much pressure overhead available, substituting components that I thought would INCREASE pressure in this case; but I wouldn't sub anything that might decrease it.



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Fishh2o
Site Admin
Posts: 304
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2016 2:02 pm
Location: Oldsmar Fl

Re: careful substitutions

Postby Fishh2o » Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:28 pm

Thanks Dave! I have been away from the forums lately and catching up on things. All your points are spot on in my opinion but please everyone when making subs on components please think it through and talk to others. Trust me its an addiction and its fun to tweak with loads to get the best load for your gun. Just be safe and if any loads in question get them tested first!


Roll with it. If you stay above 55 the wheel wont fall off.

derbyacresbob
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri May 27, 2016 9:29 pm

Re: careful substitutions

Postby derbyacresbob » Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:15 pm

I just sent in two loads to Precision Reloading to have tested. One was a 1 oz TSS 12ga load in a 2-3/4" Federal Gold Medal hull and the other one was a 1-3/8 oz Hevi-Shot load in a 2-3/4" Gold Medal hull.

I looked at other data and lowered the powder charges and used different wads. I thought by lowering the powder charges the pressures would be under 11,500 psi. I was way off, both loads were way over saami Max pressure of 11,500 psi.



hawglips
Posts: 279
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:56 pm

Re: careful substitutions

Postby hawglips » Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:43 pm

This is a good illustration of why one should get loads tested if you change things up. Don't trust any data that hasn't been tested.




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