TSS x Steel

Open discussion on Tungsten Super Shot "TSS" Handloading.

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hawglips
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TSS x Steel

Postby hawglips » Thu Oct 20, 2016 7:02 am

For those who typically shoot steel and would like to improve the performance of their loads while keeping the cost per shell at a low level, "spiking" TSS with your steel is a good way to do that. Field tests have shown, for example, that switching in 1/4 oz of small TSS shot will significantly improve your load's lethality.

As for load data, I have developed and lab tested a few 12 ga and 20 ga steel x TSS loads.

It is good to remember is that you need to consider ballistics as you do this - taking shot string and pattern disruption into account. The pellet size, order of stacking them, and time to target are things that you need to think about.



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Fishh2o
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Re: TSS x Steel

Postby Fishh2o » Sat Oct 22, 2016 12:38 pm

Hal,

Im looking at 20ga buplex loads but the problem i have right now is the gun. The 20 i have is a remington 1100 lt 20 thats only chamered for 2.75. I would love a #3 steel x 9.5 tss. i just dont think in a 2.75 load that #3s will work. have you guys done anything with 3s in a 2.75 hull? I need to look more when i get home but i might be able to find a 3/4 oz load but will that give me the # for large ducks. im almost to the point of cutting steel out and shootin 3/4 oz tss in the 20ga.

untill i get some trigger work on my 28ga and ceracote i dont want to bring it in the marsh.


Roll with it. If you stay above 55 the wheel wont fall off.

Dave in AZ
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Re: TSS x Steel

Postby Dave in AZ » Mon Oct 24, 2016 3:46 am

fish,
I'm all over this 20ga best steel loads possible in a 2.75" hull thing... several recent tests. Right now, best you can get in a 2.75" hull with speed > 1360fps (which is NEEDED with small #3 pellets for 20ga!), is 344 gr BPI load with 2091 wad in Rio w/ LilGun. 1490.
Next best is cheddite/Fiocchi/Fed hulls, csd20 wad, 3/4oz, 1600-1450 speeds.

Assuming the 3/4oz loads because they still make the csd20 wad, here's the steel/tss mix I like:
I want 145 pellets in the pattern because I think 20ga will be used with small ducks probably in the mix. With an 80% choke, which is doable with TSS, that means about 177 pellets to start will give 142 in pattern. So:
$0.98 per shell; 230gr #3 steel (80 pellets) + 98 gr TSS #9.5 gives total of 177 pellets. Easy fit.
Or use #2 steel, 230 gr for 65 pellets, same TSS, 162 total pellets and 130 in the pattern.

I was trying for a 7/8oz load of steel going 1450 to use as a basis, but came in way overpressure at 17000 or so... initial tests from guys with their own guns told me 10,700psi! Which should tell you how much to believe some guy with his own gun maybe. I'm still planning on getting something close, it can be high a bit, then replacing the steel with TSS-- lower volume should reduce pressures and increase speeds too, so I only have to be close enough to spend the coin on shot and testing with good expectation for success... which is why I wanted to start with a known good load before doping it.

Best I've got so far is Federal 20ga 2.75" Win209 21gr asteel, csd20 wad, 382 gr #3 shot: 1386 fps, 14469psi.
That's not fast enough, and too far away in pressure. There's a big gap of data down to 355gr then with BPI 90604-950
Fiocchi, 22gr asteel, pt2091 wad: 10,000 and 1355fps. That's got some pressure headroom to get speed up a bit maybe... but obsolete wad for now.

Anyways, the 3/4oz csd20 loads will have extra pressure once TSS is subbed, and extra room in wad/hull-- I expect to be able to add steel back in to something like 360 gr maybe.

For now, I'd use those mixes I gave you above and BPI 20ga 2.75" 3/4oz loads below for your basis.
140205-5439
140205-5437
60119-W1069M
60119-1069L

Uhm.. I'm probably going to test this since it's where I've been heading with those steel 20ga 2.75 loads; any input from HAL on what he's got tested already so I don't repeat something, and add useful data?



hawglips
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Re: TSS x Steel

Postby hawglips » Thu Oct 27, 2016 8:44 pm

Fishh2o wrote:Hal,

Im looking at 20ga buplex loads but the problem i have right now is the gun. The 20 i have is a remington 1100 lt 20 thats only chamered for 2.75. I would love a #3 steel x 9.5 tss. i just dont think in a 2.75 load that #3s will work. have you guys done anything with 3s in a 2.75 hull? I need to look more when i get home but i might be able to find a 3/4 oz load but will that give me the # for large ducks. im almost to the point of cutting steel out and shootin 3/4 oz tss in the 20ga.

untill i get some trigger work on my 28ga and ceracote i dont want to bring it in the marsh.



It's a bit high on PSI, so you can back off a quarter to a half grain if desired.

HAL I removed the load data. FishH2o



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Re: TSS x Steel

Postby Dave in AZ » Fri Dec 23, 2016 8:39 pm

toasty has been using a nice TSS x Steel load in 28ga that he posted about at hmm... DHC I think?
Just making a post here so folks who are reading about duplexing can go find that thread, he's had great success with it. It's called "Lilgun in cold WX..." but has a lot of info on his duplex load:

http://www.duckhuntingchat.com/forum/vi ... 4&t=826377
His mix he says is:
245gr of Steel #4 and 110gr of TSS #8.5.

I talked to him via PM a bit on it and some other loads; his initial speeds didn't look sufficient to me on some things he was looking at, just 1350 fps or so-- I always want to start with a steel load that is going 1450 or more, so I get max use of the steel. Follow me here.

In some long post I made last month on DHC where a guy was looking at 20ga duplex, I tried listing all the various "philosophies" of a TSS user, which might drive different solutions. Thought I had figured them all out, but it turns out toasty has a philosophy I hadn't considered-- and as he's shot 1000% more ducks with TSS than me, and is smart enough to have written KPY which clearly demonstrates his mindset, I'll assume his theories are correct! He told me that his attitudes and theories on TSS use have changed over time-- he started with similar to what I wrote up above and has now changed.

Here's my "blog" page collecting various posts of TSS philosophy (how much to use, what size loads, speeds, what are you optimizing the load for, etc.):
TSS/steel duplex loads and calcs, 20ga


I edited it today to add all the info below, and tighten up the phrasing a bit, so it's a good reference source, but copied it mostly from just below.

Again, since this is the TSS reloading forum, and this is the thread of TSS x Steel duplex, I just wanted to put a "bug in the reader's ear" on this idea, which I think is critical in deciding how to best use your expensive TSS. So here's the brief teaser idea:
Toasty doesn't look at trying to optimize the load for some particular range--neither creating a max range "skybuster" load, nor creating a high-pattern-density shorter range load. Both of those views are the result of doing your load analysis from the mindset of a "conical section single-range pattern snapshot" if you will. The completely missed mindset in almost all pattern discussion is optimizing the COMPLETE VOLUME of the pattern cylinder to kill ducks! A normal long range load is too tight at short range and makes hitting targets hard, and creates hamburger. What if you purposely try to spread short-range steel pellets rapidly, and use something like #4 or #3 at 1350fps, which only work out to 25-34 yds or so, to create a great short-range "pattern cylinder"? And THEN you load some TSS to handle ALL the long range work, holding a tight core to 30 yds then spreading to do the killing work from 30-45 yards. The real heretical thought here is, "WHY does all the shot have to be effective at all the ranges, if at any given range there are enough pellets being effective in the pattern of SOME of the shot?"

So that's the different view that allows one to load 1350fps duplex loads with small steel. I know Hal and Mike both spend a lot of time and $$ looking at these ballistics, and trying the loads out. Toasty is the guy who spent enough time looking scientifically at pellet ballistics and writing a program for it (KPY ballistics), AND is one of the few guys who actually goes out and shoots ducks with TSS and takes good data. He appears to be on what I'm thinking of as "the Optimized Cylinder" road... so I think it behooves me to start walking down it myself!

Hope that is helpful to guys thinking about TSS duplexing.



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Fishh2o
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Re: TSS x Steel

Postby Fishh2o » Sat Dec 24, 2016 4:20 pm

Thank you Dave... I appreciate that link and to be honest thats how my thinking is on duplexing. Granted I try to get loads that are around 1400 FPS to help the steel but I get a good pattern with them at 20 yards and i get a nice pattern at 40 yards. Im going to go over a read Toastys post. I know he has an account over here would like to hear him chime in on the subject also.


Roll with it. If you stay above 55 the wheel wont fall off.

Dave in AZ
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Re: TSS x Steel

Postby Dave in AZ » Sun Dec 25, 2016 9:16 pm

Hey fish, I thought this thread was open to all, but maybe it's just you, me, and Hal? I can't tell... if so, then kind of a wasted post for me heh... I intended it for TSS new guys, not you and Hal! ;)
Merry Xmas.

Oh, I still need to build the pattern board that captures the shot-- what's the best design as of now? Hal probably sees this a lot at turkey forums etc., and I need to do this so I don't hold off on patterning as much.



hawglips
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Re: TSS x Steel

Postby hawglips » Mon Dec 26, 2016 10:01 pm

Dave in AZ wrote:Hey fish, I thought this thread was open to all, but maybe it's just you, me, and Hal? I can't tell... if so, then kind of a wasted post for me heh... I intended it for TSS new guys, not you and Hal! ;)
Merry Xmas.

Oh, I still need to build the pattern board that captures the shot-- what's the best design as of now? Hal probably sees this a lot at turkey forums etc., and I need to do this so I don't hold off on patterning as much.


Most guys hang some rubber or carpet backing in a few layers with an angled tin sheet in the back, and something to collect the shot as it falls out. There are several designs over on Gobbler Nation.



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Re: TSS x Steel

Postby Fishh2o » Thu Dec 29, 2016 2:47 pm

Moved!


Roll with it. If you stay above 55 the wheel wont fall off.

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Re: TSS x Steel

Postby WVU » Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:39 am

Hello and thanks for allowing me to discuss ask questions on the TSS forum.


This will be my first experience with reloading shotshella and I was hoping to get some insight/guidance from you all on the loading of TSS x Steel duplex loads. I have experience reloading rifle cartridges but not shotgun shells (aside from "helping" my grandfather when I was About 10-13yrs old), so please be patient with my inexperience.

I just started duck hunting this past year and my initial thought was "how can I improve the overall performance of these steel shot cartridges. Initially my thought was to try to reload a shell for a 20ga of TSS. After reading through your alls posts on here and DHC it seems apparent that the bigger advantage is in using the TSS as a "supplement" to the steel.

I'm not sure that I'm looking for a particular range shell, but rather one that will give an even/consistent pattern while adding some lethality at greater distance than straight steel will give.

My questions for the group are in regards to TSS shot size.

Would 9 or 9.5 be a more universal sized TSS to run out of a 20ga duplex load?

Since I am new to reloading I may also attempt to supplement the TSS into a 12ga goose load or even a 20ga turkey load...would the 9 or 9.5 serve these purpose as well or do I need to go to a larger sized TSS like 8 or 8.5 for turkey or geese.


Should I be running a BB sized steel out of the 20 duplex or something smaller like a #3 steel

Thanks for your input in advance




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