TSSxSteel duplexing ?

Open discussion on Tungsten Super Shot "TSS" Handloading.

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mt1784
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:51 pm

TSSxSteel duplexing ?

Postby mt1784 » Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:56 pm

Hello, I have been reading a ton and getting components as available. I have done lead target and metallic reloading as a back ground. My overall plan is to duplex roughly 1/2 tss with remainder steel in both in 12 gauge for me and 20 for my daughter. I was thinking 9x4 for pheasants and 7 x 2 or 3 for ducks and geese. I have the RSI and BPI load books right now and might get lighting steel as well.
It seems the standard is to take a steel load and sub in the tss plus filler wads, and I plan on making and patterning some of these. My question is has any one taken a tss load and substituted in some steel? A side bar in the RSI book has a hw13 or 18 load (#91)that uses 601grs of shot. I put a 1/2oz of #7tss in a sam1 wad and it was around 380grns of #3 steel to fill the wad, which is close to the total payload of the RSI load. Everything else being equal this should have similar pressure/velocity as straight tss load right? or am I missing something. If needed I plan on sending in loads to be tested but hope to not reinvent the wheel if this has already been done and doesn't work that well. Thanks for your input.



Dave in AZ
Posts: 219
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2016 1:38 pm

Re: TSSxSteel duplexing ?

Postby Dave in AZ » Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:16 pm

Replacing dense shot with fluffier shot ==VOLUME increases.  This increased volume means that the wad has pressure exerted outward over a larger surface area, which means friction increases, which means PRESSURE INCREASES. 
.  Replacing some of a steel shot column's payload with an equal weight of more-dense shot, say putting 1/8oz of TSS 18g/cc in for 1/8oz of steel 2's at 7.8 g/cc, will keep payload weight the same but decrease total volume... decreasing pressure, and generally making this a safe substitution.  With testing, it can also allow  you to get back up to original pressure by either increasing powder/speed, or increasing total payload a wee bit.  So you can improve duck loads several ways doing this.
3.  Never replace shot with a lighter/less-dense shot, as pressures will increase.

So NO, you can't take a tss or HW published load and replace some shot with steel. But you CAN take a published steel load and replace steel with denser shot.

Well, assuming you personally decide to deviate from published and accept the risk all on yourself.



mt1784
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:51 pm

Re: TSSxSteel duplexing ?

Postby mt1784 » Wed Feb 10, 2021 9:37 am

Thanks Dave, I figured I was missing something besides just total payload. I will stick with steel recipes and add filler wads. Now if the world would just get back to normal so I can actually get components that would be great.
P.S. also wanted to thank Dave for your blog and excellent info there.



hawglips
Posts: 513
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:56 pm

Re: TSSxSteel duplexing ?

Postby hawglips » Wed Feb 10, 2021 9:41 am

On another point to consider, if you are duplexing with 2 or 3 steel, TSS 7s might be too big, depending on what you're wanting to accomplish with spiking the steel with TSS. 9s or 9-1/2s will match-up better ballistics-wise.

TSS 9s will get to 30 yds faster than any steel up to size #1, and penetrate better than steel up to size BB.



mt1784
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:51 pm

Re: TSSxSteel duplexing ?

Postby mt1784 » Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:30 am

I was thinking 7 tss just for the extra knock down power on geese that might be farther out. We get a lot of mixed ducks and geese coming in with some pass shooting. Will 3 steel at say 1300fps be enough for geese at 30 yards or under?



hawglips
Posts: 513
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:56 pm

Re: TSSxSteel duplexing ?

Postby hawglips » Wed Feb 10, 2021 2:45 pm

I think you should put the TSS 7s on top of the steel if you do that, otherwise it will most likely disrupt your pattern.

I'm not a fan of something as small as 3 steel for geese though.

I recently sort of came to the conclusion that on paper, the better goose/duck combo TSS x steel duplex would be a TSS 8 x steel B. Ask me a year from now after it's been field tested thoroughly and this conversation might be more meaningful... :)



Dave in AZ
Posts: 219
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2016 1:38 pm

Re: TSSxSteel duplexing ?

Postby Dave in AZ » Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:45 pm

Thx for the nice comments mt ;)

Hawglips, that tss 8 and B steel is probably what I'd use for geese and ducks too. For ducks I'm using 9.5tss. If I used a lot of tss I'd do B steel, but I mostly add 50 to 100 gr of 9.5tss just to salt a steel load up to 180 pellet counts, so I end up using mostly 3s for steel, which work good alone for me. But I never see geese really.

If I used 12ga more, I'd use 2s and B to mix with the tss. But you pattern and duck pics, as well as bullet225ho and drswane and hammernhonkers and jfg, all posting ducks and geese with 410, have got me concentrating on 410 and 28ga now!;)



bullet225ho
Posts: 70
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:26 pm

Re: TSSxSteel duplexing ?

Postby bullet225ho » Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:40 am

This thread got me thinking,

only because my buddy in Texas can't wait till I come into town and whack whatever is in season with 28 and 410. At that point he laughs and laughs and yells at our clients or blind buddies...."I told you he'd smash'em!!!!" Yet he can not get away from the 12 gauge. He is always on me...."load me up some TSS Express" but I keep telling him that he should just stick with steel.

Now that I'm reading this. If one where to want to venture into the long range game, or maybe into the mega pattern (as in fill a 60" pattern at 40 yrds) then maybe duplexing a 12ga may come into play. Of course the small bore guy in me says...."Why?" and the reloader/devoleper says "Why Not?"

So maybe we could work out a load that does both.

I've not looked at any numbers but a 3/4oz load of tss and a 1oz load of steel in a 12 seems plausible...I'll have to pull out some wads and take a look. Like Dave said, Maybe 9's or 8.5 TSS and B steel or 2 steel in 12 ga. Steel on top and you should have a whopper of a pattern at 40yds. Stack TSS on top and that should hold a smasher way out there with a super tight pattern. The problem with me is I'm frugal and I like my small bore's as the 1/2oz of TSS is the most economical way to go. I did get a really nice load for my buddy with some HW-15 over some steel B's and it was a killer on geese and cranes.

The TSS saga continues. It just depends on in which manner your want your birds dead I guess...LOL



mt1784
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:51 pm

Re: TSSxSteel duplexing ?

Postby mt1784 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:21 pm

I will be focusing most of my duplex to start in the 20 gauge for my daughter, but I figure might as well shoot the best shells I can and for some reason I wont spend $4 a shell but dont mind spending $2. really feel from all my reading that you can have a close up open steel pattern and some tss for the farther shots in the same shell.



mt1784
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:51 pm

Re: TSSxSteel duplexing ?

Postby mt1784 » Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:30 pm

So I finally got the right combination of components and loaded up 5 20g duplexes last night. I used BPI load 130729-4922r. It uses a 3" Cheddite hulls with lil gun powder, pt 2092 wad and 420grains of shot. I used 200g of #7tss and 220g of #3steel. I ruined two hulls trying to get good crimp and ended up using 4 felts under the shot with one above and an overshot card to get a decent crimp. I am thinking of trying some airsoft pellets to take up some of that room. I should have a shot trap built this weekend and will see how these pattern.
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